Transcript: E09 Leo Crane — Tech in Service of Tradition, Tactile Art Practices, and Constant Collaboration 

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[0:02] BW: Welcome back to Pixels and Paint. I’m thrilled to have today’s guest, animator, designer, painter, and writer, Leo Crane. Leo, welcome.

[0:16] LC: Thanks for having me, Brady. It’s good to meet you.

From Art Adjacency to Animation Mastery

[0:20] BW: Likewise, Leo. Could you introduce yourself to our audience who may not be familiar with your work?

[0:31] LC: Of course, I’d like to say hello to Julian, who introduced me to you all. I’m an artist and filmmaker who adopted NFTs early in 2021, having practiced at the intersection of physical and digital media. I run a studio in South London, specifically in Crystal Palace. It’s a site with a rich history, housing the world’s great wonders that unfortunately burnt down. Despite this, it still retains a sense of creativity and industry. Along with my husband, Roy Joseph Butler, who is my creative partner and co-director of the studio, I make films, curate exhibitions, and teach at various institutions including the V&A Museum, Sotheby’s Institute of Art, British Library, and local community centers. The nexus of community, creativity, industry, commerce, and collaboration is a vital part of my practice. That’s why Web3 and Maker’s Place are so fascinating to me; they allow me to elevate my work to a new level.

[2:11] BW: You began an animation master’s program when you were 33. What did you do before that?

[2:18] LC: Yes, you’ve done your research. I’ve always been involved in art, performing as an actor, writing, making ceramics. However, I veered from art due to the “starving artist” stereotype and ventured into adjacent fields. I worked in museums and cultural spaces, handling PR, fundraising, and business strategies. I spent seven years at the Victoria and Albert Museum, the UK National Museum of Art and Design, which is arguably the world’s greatest museum of art and design. It houses a vast array of artifacts ranging from ancient Chinese ceramics to Italian Renaissance masterpieces, right up to cutting-edge fashion and a deep digital collection dating back to the 1950s. During my time there, I worked on an interactive digital exhibition called Decode, which toured China and Israel. This experience, coupled with meeting innovative artists, inspired me to pursue animation. I appreciated how it blends fine art, performance, music, and technology. As a result, I left my job and home, spent all my savings, and enrolled in a master’s program at Bournemouth University.

Balancing Digital and Traditional Art

[5:00] BW: The V&A seems like an ideal place for someone like you to hone your skills. I’m curious about how being exposed to various art forms and periods influenced your art. Today, for example, we’ll discuss The Masterpiece of Tamagata. It tells the story of something ancient using modern technology, like watercolor animation on computers. There’s a fascinating balance in your work between classic influences and technology. But I also want to talk about your drawing practice. My research suggests you didn’t start drawing seriously until you were 36, is that correct?

[6:25] LC: Actually, I was 39 when I really dove into drawing in 2016. I’d been doing casual drawings even before that, taking advantage of drop-in life drawing workshops available in London. Despite having a full-time job, I could head to a room above a pub after work, grab a beer, and spend a couple of hours drawing. But it was around this time I established my animation studio right after my master’s program. I didn’t want anything to do with the exploitative animation industry that I saw, where people were underpaid and overworked. So, I started doing digital brand work for a big corporate brand. After about three years, I found myself yearning for more tangible, textural human contact with the material. I was done with digital animation, so I started taking drawing and painting more seriously.

That’s also around the time I met my future husband, who happened to be a life model. Yes, we met while he was posing nude in the center of a drawing room. He was working with an artist named Maggie Hambling at the time, a renegade artist from the ’60s and ’70s. She’s been a huge influence on me, challenging who gets to make and be depicted in art. Through her and my husband, I got serious about painting and drawing, mostly in charcoal and oils, working from life.

Then, I got selected for a TV talent show, “Portrait Artist of the Year,” where we painted live. It was nerve-wracking but also a great opportunity to get serious about my art. After I did well on the show, I started getting commissions and portrait painting gigs. I then found myself missing the digital aspect of art, which led me to combine the two into what I do today.

[10:29] BW: That’s quite the journey. As someone who spends all my work hours on a computer and does most of my creative work on it, I’m somewhat envious.

[10:51] LC: I do love computers and spend lots of time in front of them. However, I appreciate the opportunity to step away and come back fresh. That’s why I have two studios: one for computer work and another for painting. I can switch between the two depending on my mood or deadlines.

[11:17] BW: It sounds beneficial to have the two spaces separate, it must trigger a mental shift when you walk into the room with no computers and are not distracted by digital devices.

[11:33] LC: Absolutely, plus there’s no risk of spilling watercolors on the computers.

The Influence of Betty Misheiker

[11:36] BW: A valid point. Changing topics, could you tell me about Betty Misheiker?

[11:50] LC: Betty Misheiker was a South African children’s author who began writing in the 1950s and 1960s. She was very prolific, and most children growing up in South Africa during that era probably listened to her stories on the radio before school, as they always included a song. She penned around 2000 stories in her lifetime, all of which were published as books except for one. This is the story that led me to her.

Sadly, she passed away before we could meet, but her daughter, Ilona Misheiker, now Ilona Suschitzky, attended an animation workshop I was running. Ilona was insistent on animating a sequence from her mother’s unpublished story, which Betty had gifted her for her 16th birthday. After the workshop, Ilona shared the importance of this story and her lifelong efforts to bring it to life. Initially, I refused to help, offering to show her my setup so she could better understand what animation involves. However, the story kept haunting me. After discussing it with Roy, my partner and a screenwriter, we decided to adapt it into an animation script. So from January 2020, Betty Misheiker became an integral part of our lives.

[14:53] BW: Did your research involve reading many of Betty Misheiker’s other stories? Were you aiming to capture her voice in your adaptation?

[15:06] LC: We focused mainly on the one story. We were confident that Ilona, who is co-directing the film we’re making, could adequately represent her mother’s voice and guide us towards authenticity if needed.

From Apartheid to Art: The Hidden Story Behind ‘The Masterpiece of Tamagata

[15:33] BW: Your website indicates that the story of “The Masterpiece of Tamagata” was considered too risky to release when it was initially written. Could you tell me why it was seen as dangerous?

[15:42] LC: “The Masterpiece of Tamagata” is a deeply emotive allegory rooted in the realities of apartheid South Africa, a time of extreme societal division based on race. Betty Misheiker, a white Jewish woman, and her family, including a young black woman living with them, faced a challenging situation. The young woman fell pregnant and, due to strict apartheid regulations, was not allowed to keep her baby with her in the white-designated area.

The Misheiker family couldn’t bear the thought of separating mother and child, so they decided to hide the baby in the house. The baby boy, who was the same age as Ilona, Betty’s daughter, grew up in her bedroom. Within the house, they managed to maintain a semblance of a harmonious, multiracial family life. However, as the boy grew and the need for school became imminent, the situation became untenable. The family eventually had to separate, with the mother and child moving away so the boy could grow up in an environment that wouldn’t jeopardize his life.

It’s believed that Betty wrote “The Masterpiece of Tamagata” as a means to process this experience. However, openly writing about apartheid South Africa could have landed her in prison and endangered the lives of the boy and his mother, hence the story remained hidden. Now, with societal divisions exacerbating worldwide, it seems more relevant than ever to share it.

[19:58] BW: Did Ilona continue to maintain a relationship with the woman and boy who left?

[20:06] LC: That’s a part of the story best told by Ilona. However, I can say that by engaging with “The Masterpiece of Tamagata”, you can experience the emotional journey of the story without delving into the specifics of the real-life event. There’s a unique power in an allegory that allows people to bring their own experiences and interpretations to the narrative.

[20:57] BW: Indeed, allegorical literature, such as “The Metamorphosis,” allows for unique, personal interpretations, and despite nearly a century passing since it was written, it still speaks to individuals in ways that are uniquely meaningful to them.

[21:26] LC: Absolutely. The way people respond to “The Masterpiece of Tamagata” is astounding. I’ve observed a particular connection within the queer community and among individuals who feel marginalized from mainstream society, who often create internal fantasies as a form of escape. This was further magnified during the COVID pandemic.

When we first presented this story during Mayfair Art Week in London, we converted a boutique shop, sadly out of business due to the pandemic, into the world of Tamagata. We had a stage model of his house and projections of birds flying and trees being painted. Despite having only a few seconds of animation, we were able to tell the story and the response was overwhelming.

There’s a surface story about a couple unable to have children, a sorrowful reality for many, including myself, which fosters an immediate connection. But beyond that, the narrative resonates with those who feel the need to escape the world and find a place where they can exist comfortably according to their own principles of right and wrong, love, and happiness. The fact that we all have the capacity to create that world within ourselves, whether through painting, creating a metaverse, or immersing ourselves in music or poetry, is a profoundly powerful thing.

Blending Traditional and Digital Art Techniques

[23:51] BW: The film’s beauty is absolutely striking, especially considering that it’s all hand-painted watercolor. Can you elaborate on the process and duration behind this intricate work?

[24:12] LC: Certainly, and thank you. We utilized both traditional and digital techniques without favoring one over the other. We wanted to use Japanese inks because the protagonist of the story is a painter. So, Ilona and I dedicated two years to learning the traditional art of Sumi-e painting. Despite the arduous task, it felt necessary to do the actual thing, although ink painting is a distinct skill from watercolor.

We were fortunate to learn from a master teacher, Kami Lucas, here in the UK. She walked us through traditional exercises, and we then adapted these for animation. To capture subtle nuances in facial expressions, we introduced digital drawing with the help of a sponsorship from TVPaint. An expert animator, Natasha Settle, who graduated from the Royal College of Art, leads the digital side.

We aimed to express two contrasting worlds: the Shogun’s world—a masculine, structured, dangerous realm—and the painter’s fantasy—a feminine, free, expansive universe. To achieve this, the Shogun’s world is depicted with static, sparse paintings, while moments of emotional turmoil or fantasy are represented by ink dispersing through water.

Creating these water scenes was a challenging task, especially as I had to figure out filming through glass and water to capture ink drops. Initially, I had to discard all my shots due to reflections appearing as the ink made the water darker. Now, we’re working with an experienced cinematographer who happens to be Ilona’s husband. His resume includes works like “Return of the Jedi” and “Rocky Horror Picture Show,” and he’s helping us film some sequences for the film. Our small passion project has attracted some top-notch Hollywood talent.

[28:57] BW: That’s an incredibly fortunate connection. Finding such talent could have been much harder otherwise.

[29:04] LC: Indeed, it could have been.

Harmonizing Tradition and Innovation: Opera in the NFT Space

[29:06] BW: I’d like to discuss the piece “L’amoure rebelle.” I think it speaks volumes about you as an artist. Can you explain why this piece exists and what it represents?

[29:27] LC: Absolutely. “L’amoure rebelle” was my breakthrough moment in the Web 3 space. Initially, I began by minting from pre-existing watercolor animations, but this piece was born entirely within the NFT realm. It wouldn’t exist otherwise.

I remember being on a London bus, participating in a Clubhouse chat back in 2021. A new participant announced she was an opera singer, which was fascinating—a merging of traditional and digital realms. This sparked the idea of marrying traditional visual and musical practices with cutting-edge technology. I wanted to demonstrate the potential of NFTs in areas beyond the mainstream. My thought was, if you can apply NFTs to opera, you can apply them to anything.

My collaborators, Miranda and Zach, had already been working on rearranging famous arias to drop as NFTs but faced challenges due to the lack of a music-only platform at the time. As they were not visual artists, I stepped in. We first created a test piece called “Ethel Shultz,” which was successful. We then fully invested in an opera NFT based on Carmen’s aria “Habanera.”

The aria speaks about love as a rebel bird, which we saw as a metaphor for technology and Web 3—the constant presence, the annoyance, yet the elusive nature when you try to grasp it. We transformed this aria into a metaphor for our digital world and released a teaser as an NFT. This caught the attention of some folks in LA, leading to the first-ever live opera NFT. The performance included musicians from the LA Philharmonic, couturier Rami Kadi, and animations of charcoal drawings. Each intimate performance offered a uniquely immersive experience.

The Immersive Power of Live Performances

[33:34] BW: That’s beautiful. This piece speaks to me about you. In a 2020 interview, you mentioned your fascination with the friction between traditional craftsmanship and new technology. I see that in your work, how you balance old and new, such as using a classic opera in a modern context. It’s hand-drawn, yet post-production is done on a computer and it’s minted on blockchain. You add to that a live immersive performance, which some could view as a dig at crypto art. It seems like you enjoy walking the line between these worlds. So, do you ever crave simplicity?

[35:29] LC: If you knew my parents or siblings, you’d understand that taking the easy route isn’t really in our genetic makeup. Believe me, I’ve tried to simplify things. But if my work isn’t something new and different, if it isn’t advancing the medium or giving audiences something fresh to experience, I just don’t see the point. If my aim were commercial success, I’d have taken a different career path. What I love is playing with creativity and exploring what it means to be human.

The immersive aspect is important to me. I have a live theatre background and I’ve always struggled with purely digital experiences. That’s why when the opportunity to perform L’amoure Rebelle live came along, it was a no-brainer. Then at the Non-Fungible Conference in Lisbon, we projected the opera in a massive room. It was an amazing experience to combine the digital and physical, both in the production process and the final performance.

[38:20] BW: I saw some photos and videos of that installation in Lisbon. I wish I could have been there.

[38:30] LC: It was incredible. It was a top-notch NFT conference.

[38:36] BW: You mentioned William Kentridge as an inspiration for L’amoure Rebelle. How significant has he been to your work?

[38:49] LC: I deeply admire William Kentridge. There are many parallels in our careers. He began in theater, just like me, and moved through charcoal drawing to filmmaking and opera. He’s unique in what he does, particularly his combination of moving and still images, performance, and music. There aren’t many artists out there at his level doing the same thing. So, while I do find inspiration in the work of many talented artists in my community, when I think of a major exhibition in a big national institution, Kentridge would be one of the most inspirational.

Intersections of Dance, Theatre, and Animation

[40:11] BW: Speaking of inspirations, another person we both admire is Pina Bausch. You’ve mentioned her as an inspiration for “The Library”, your short film. Could you elaborate on that?

[40:37] LC: My mother worked with Pina Bausch, so I had the fortune to watch her dance. When I was a kid, I saw “Café Müller” in London, which she danced in, and it still resonates with me nearly 40 years later. Her use of repetition in movement, building a narrative through it, seems particularly relevant to animation. Given that animation is laborious, being economical and reusing elements is critical, hence the use of loops, walk cycles, etc. This led me to experiment with looping and repeated actions to develop narrative, and Pina Bausch was a great source of inspiration for that. For those unfamiliar, she was the founder of Dance Theatre for Batal, an iconic experimental modern dance company. She passed away around a decade ago and is greatly missed in the world of dance and theater.

Another inspiration was Samuel Beckett, who wrote an algorithmic script for a play involving robots. His work demonstrated how our human nature layers a narrative onto the simplest of actions. Pina Bausch’s and Beckett’s use of repetition in different contexts, alongside my own experiences in live performance, where every repeated performance is unique, informed my work. I strive to infuse that live spark into the pre-rendered world of animation, and keeping Bausch’s work in mind was incredibly helpful for that.

[43:38] BW: I recommend viewers watch the Wim Wenders documentary about Pina Bausch. I was fortunate to watch it in theaters in 3D. I never saw her perform live, but I did see her company tour in Brooklyn, which was remarkable. I’m surprised to hear about this Beckett piece as he’s one of my favorites.

[44:06] LC: It’s not well-known. I’m not even sure how I found it or what it’s called, but it consists of a few lines of text and a diagram, a guide to repetitive movement from A to B, B to C, and so on, ad infinitum.

[44:24] BW: This reminds me of Beckett’s “Malloy”, where the character meticulously moves rocks from pocket to pocket to maintain balance throughout the day. I’d like to draw attention to “The Library”, a great short film you created. It’s a beautiful, silent dance where the attraction to a stranger grows as you observe them from afar, a dance of emotions we’ve all likely experienced. I highly recommend everyone check it out.

[45:52] LC: That was my degree project. Commissioned by the London Library, I observed readers for a week, capturing their furtive glances at each other. The characters are based on real people and their stories of suppressed desires within the library. I think the tagline is “library etiquette versus carnal desires.”

[46:43] BW: You run a studio, Figuration, with your husband Roy Joseph Butler, who features in many of your works, like “Being”. Can you tell me more about your creative dynamic?

[47:06] LC: Our dynamic is very natural. We’re always discussing ideas, and when a project comes up, we have the collective skills to develop it to the point where we can pitch for funding. We explore similar stories, but we’re also individual creators. He writes for others, and I animate for others, which works fine for us. What Roy has taught me is to appreciate the co-creation of an art piece. It isn’t only about the artist making the marks on the canvas. The sitter, the producer, or anyone involved can influence the piece. This is where Web 3 is exciting. When you invest in NFTs, you’re buying into the creation and life of the project, participating in the act of co-creation.

[50:23] BW: I’ve spoken with numerous artists about collaboration – what makes it good, what makes it bad. What I’ve consistently heard is that if the collaboration is something you could have done by yourself, it can be frustrating. If you have the same skills or similar style as your collaborator, it can create tension as you wait for things to come back to you. This might differ with static visual art compared to animation and storytelling which requires an ongoing conversation in greater depth. But I’m curious about the complementary or contrasting skills that you and Roy bring to your collaborations?

[51:24] LC: Well, Roy would say he can’t draw, although I might disagree. But we have distinct preferences in a project, and they meld together quite naturally. In the broader context of collaboration, whether you require different or similar skill sets depends on the nature of the project. In the world of film performance or music, you often need multiple teams because of the sheer volume of work. You have to be on the same page, follow the same style and work in harmony for it to work. So sometimes you need to be the same, sometimes different. What makes a collaboration work is how you define and manage people’s expectations about their roles.

Economic Realities of an Art Career

[52:35] BW: Let’s change direction a bit in this interview. In addition to getting to know you, Pixels and Paint also aims to help our audience navigate their art careers. So I have a few questions for you in that spirit, if you’re game. You’re an experimental animator with work that often focuses on queer themes and features nudity. How do you make money?

[53:16] LC: A while ago, I decided not to try and make money solely from my own art. This might be controversial, but I don’t think many artists actually survive on creating only the art they want to make. I’ve had a commercial practice working to commission, worked as an agency creating art for brands, but none of this fulfills my artistic aspirations. The only way I’ve found to be free enough to create what I want, which isn’t a product, is to diversify. I teach, write books, guest lecture, speak at events, and work as a consultant for nonprofits. This approach provides the flexibility to focus on my art practice when needed. Of course, it’s taken years to build a client portfolio that makes this viable. Now, even when making the art I want, I secure funding for it. We’ve raised a significant amount for our current project, mainly to pay those involved. I never ask someone to work on a project for free unless they have equity in it. I don’t want to add to the exploitation in the art world. This funding comes from a variety of sources, including public sector bodies like the Arts Council, England, private sector, and NFTs. Overall, I ensure I have enough regular income from work outside my creative practice to support myself. Teaching, for example, allows me to continually reflect on why I’m doing what I’m doing. It refreshes my perspective for my next project.

Creative Career Building

[57:57] BW: Yeah, it seems like teaching is a great learning tool. Do you think there’s a creative process to building a creative career?

[58:14] LC: That’s a good question. The answer must be yes. Creativity is all about experimentation and continually pushing to find new ways of doing things, which can apply to career building too. To be a true creative, you have to take risks. Some of the most creative people I know have a part-time University job. It frees them up to do whatever they like outside of that. Finding what works for you is important because everyone is different, and you will only find it by trial and error. Creativity is all about failure; you don’t learn anything from doing something well.

[59:24] BW: Then I’m on the right track. How do you manage your time? How do you prioritize tasks as an artist? Do you give yourself deadlines? What does it look like on the inside of your calendar, your planning?

[59:47] LC: I have many theories and processes and spreadsheets, but they often sit unused. Certain things have deadlines, so they get bumped up the queue. The difficulty is the early development phases of new projects, where there’s no funding or no one else relying on it getting done. It’s just for me. So that often gets put on the back burner, which is a mistake because that’s the stuff that drives everything. I’ve tried time blocking, like from seven till ten every morning for myself in the studio. I have tried various things. I haven’t quite figured it out yet.

[1:01:31] BW: Time blocking is something I’ve been doing this year, and it’s been life-changing. I use an app called ‘Session’. I plan out every hour of my day, from nine to five, in 15-minute increments and then take 10-minute breaks every 15 minutes. On the days I work through the breaks, I hit a wall around two or three o’clock. But when I do take consistent breaks, I stay fresh the whole day.

[1:02:33] LC: One thing that I do have is always having a drawing or painting in progress. When I hit a block in front of the computer, I go next door and draw for 20 minutes. That really helps me.

[1:02:49] BW: I play music, so having a dedicated, always-ready space for that would be good.

[1:02:57] LC: Absolutely. If you have to set it up and clear it up afterwards, you won’t do it. It needs to be ready and waiting for you.

[1:03:08] BW: That reminds me of either Philip K. Dick or Isaac Asimov who had multiple typewriters all over his house. No matter what room he found himself in, he would have a story to work on waiting for him in the typewriter.

[1:03:30] LC: That’s a good idea, it resonates with me.

Creating an Environment Conducive to Creativity

[1:03:34] BW: Now, my next question is something I’ve asked several artists, and it’s particularly relevant for you. How does frustration manifest in your creative practice? And what do you do to get past it? When I ask this of people who are working alone on their computers, it’s one thing. But when I ask someone who collaborates with 10-20 others on a project, I expect a different answer.

[1:04:14] LC: Frustration for me often comes from trying to balance multiple roles. For instance, in Tamagata, I’m a producer, director, animator, compositor, and editor. So I have creative, management, and leadership roles all at once. The team is split into various tasks like painting, digital work, music, composition, and writing. They don’t necessarily know what each other is doing, and I have to bring them together. It’s quite a task. What’s frustrating for me is when I don’t manage to do that, and then others get held up, losing their momentum. That happens when I get occupied with my other responsibilities. As for creative block, I don’t really have issues with it because I work on multiple projects. If one isn’t working, I’ll go to another or I’ll go for a walk. I don’t try to push through it. The most frustrating thing is when someone’s work is unusable because the brief wasn’t clear. That’s frustrating for them and for me, because I know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of that.

[1:06:58] BW: I have one final question, a variation on a theme I usually ask. What’s the most recent profound realization you’ve had about creativity, the creative process, or the mindset necessary for creativity?

[1:07:49] LC: The most life-changing realization for me was that creativity isn’t a choice, it’s as essential as breathing or eating. If a day goes by and I don’t draw, paint, or interact with a physical medium, I feel it. It affects everything else in my life. I think everyone needs that space where our minds can shift from logical thinking to a more creative mindset. Without it, things start to fall apart.

[1:09:14] BW: I’ve also experienced that realization, though it’s more with music for me. As a follow-up, could you share the context around that realization?

[1:09:41] LC: There were times when I thought being an artist was indulgent. It’s a self-reflective process that might not be the most lucrative or practical, especially when you have a family to support. So, I considered pursuing other jobs, ones that people offered me. However, I found that I couldn’t abandon my autonomy and creative impulses. I realized it’s not selfish; it’s fundamental. This creativity fuels not only me but others who share similar experiences. That’s what we’re discovering with Tamagata. The resonance that people have with that story shows its importance in the world right now. While I’d love for it to be successful, I want it more to connect with people, allowing them to use it in their own ways and connect their experiences with others’.

[1:12:13] BW: That’s beautiful. I’m glad I asked that question, and now I know how to ask it better. As we’re wrapping up, Leo, tell us about the Tamagata drop that’s coming up.

[1:12:32] LC: The Tamagata feature film is currently in production. During production, we’re releasing NFTs as part of the Tamagata collection. This is under the banner of Adverset NFT through Baker Space. We’ve released two so far. The first one is a limited edition of 30, available for $99 each, and most have been collected already. If you want one, I suggest you act fast. The second one is a video that was exhibited 40 feet high at various sites around Paris and New York’s Times Square. It’s one of the most iconic shots of the film and it’s going to auction with a reserve of three ether starting June 22nd, 2023. As the film production progresses, the NFT collection will expand, each one signifying a new stage in production until the film’s release.

[1:13:45] BW: That’s fascinating.

[1:13:47] LC: After the release, the film will be sent to festivals and then for distribution.

[1:14:12] BW: That’s beautiful. Well, Leo, thank you so much for taking the time. Excuse me, I have a visitor here who needs my attention.

[1:15:16] LC: Brady, I wouldn’t want to get in the way of your family time. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your insightful questions and for delving into the depth of the projects.

[1:15:31] BW: Thank you, Leo, for coming on. I appreciate the depth of our conversation and your patience with my curiosity. The drop is on the 22nd, so don’t miss it. If you do, there’s always the secondary market. This is an amazing project and absolutely beautiful. Do check it out. Can you remind us of your website?

[1:16:04] LC: It’s

[1:16:07] BW: Great. Thanks so much, Leo.

[1:16:13] LC: I’d also like to express my gratitude to Makers Place for their support and Julian Farrell (@AnimusNFT) for producing this NFT drop with me. This collaboration epitomizes co-creation.

[1:16:40] BW: Absolutely. Listeners can also check out my interview with Animus over at Makers Place. Thanks again, Leo. Cheers.

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